Talk:The Heart/Quotes/@comment-49.144.212.154-20130617093109/@comment-27202257-20140811065110

Not sure why a thread from over a year ago troubles you so, anon, but all right.

This discussion took place before much was known about the Oracular Order, so it was unknown how much power that really held. I'll concede that point.

"They're a religious institution; they're gonna be a couple hundred years behind in terms of morality/progression."

Not necessarily. You're assuming that the society of Dunwall mirrors our own, where religion does not necessarily mingle with politics regularly. Given that the Overseers are granted civil authority and have the right to punish religious transgressions, I would say that they are right in line with modern morality, if for no other reason than they make it so.

"Morgan, Custis, and that guy Morgan's prostitute used to work for. That's 3 guys. That's circumstantial evidence about the general makeup of parliament at best."

Yet it is what we have to work with. While we can speculate all we like about who else might be in Parliament, the fact remains that the only members we are aware of are men. It is entirely possible that Parliament (and the government in general) has more women than we are aware of. However, the information we currently have shows that all but one high-ranking individual in the Dunwall government is male--and she inherited.

"The City Watch is shown to be exclusively men...but we have no evidence that this is because of some systemic limitation"

In this particular case, you are right that women make up a small subset of the City Watch, which has been confirmed since this discussion took place. However, to say that sexism plays no part in that is short-sighted. There's been quite a bit of research into gender bias in employment in the real world (see here and here for examples), so to say that plays no factor seems unlikely. That's particularly so given that we know systematic limitations based on gender are legal in Dunwall, i.e. women not being allowed to sail on whaling trawlers.

"Ok first of all, teachers aren't a subservient occupation (seriously, what?)"

When they work immediately under another authority and answer to them entirely, yes they are. Callista is very much in a subservient role, and we don't see any other teachers in the game.

"What I'm saying is, in the settings we visit, there's not a lot of opportunity to show women in other occupations other than ones that would put them in rich people's houses."

That's the thing though--from what we see, there are no women in other occupations. We can speculate all we like about what other jobs women may have, or what subservient tasks men may do, but the fact remains that we don't see any of that. We see women as servants and whores (which isn't a wholly necessary portrayal, if it isn't meant to mean anything; that mission could have been set anywhere, but the devs chose a whorehouse specifically) and men in positions of authority. That is what is in front of us, and it seems a little too convenient that that is the setup we see everywhere we go.

(ETA: I can think of counter-example: Abigal Ames, who becomes a foreman at the Rothwild Slaughterhouse. It does seem that women are legally allowed to hold such positions, but given she's the only one we've heard of and she is very crafty, it leaves one to wonder about any restrictions to entry as noted above.)

"Jessamine was not killed because she was a woman. She was killed because Burrows fucked up and was trying to cover her tracks. He would've killed the ruler regardless of sex."

Perhaps. That wasn't so much a defining part of the argument, just an interesting point.

"Also re: Jessamine, where's the goddamn patriarchy in ensuring she's married and has a legitimate heir?"

This paragraph is a bit speculative. Why do you assume that no one is talking shit about Jessamine behind her back? They can talk louder about Corvo, naturally, because he doesn't have the spheres-given authority to have them killed. That doesn't mean they aren't saying it, or thinking it, they're just not doing it within earshot.

(Also, of note: Pendleton tells Corvo "everyone knows you were screwing the Empress." Not "getting screwed" by the Empress, not being her harem boy, not anything that would suggest he was subservient to her. Yet it also doesn't suggest he was ravishing her or she was otherwise not a player in the affair. It's a little thing, but it suggests to me that neither of them were looked on favorably for their relationship.)

"Most of the things you're pointing out as evidence of sexism can be chalked up more neatly and easily to evidence of classism."

They aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not suggesting that classism doesn't play a factor, because it obviously does. However, as with real life, -isms tend to intertwine and feed off each other. I don't think it's wrong to suggest that much of the Empire's social ills come from a combination of racism, sexism, and classism.

"Evidence against the claim of rampant sexism in Dunwall: Ladies go about unmarried (Ladies Boyle, Jessamine, Granny Rags)"

Excluding Jessamine, all of these women are widowed. In the time period Dishonored is based on, these women would be expected to remain unmarried following the deaths of their husbands. Jessamine is a monarch, so at the end of the day marriage is at her discretion (which is replicated in our own world i.e. Queen Elizabeth).

"owning property (Ladies Boyle, Jessamine, Granny Rags, Cecelia), owning businesses (Madam Prudence), working in government offices (Morgan's prostitute)"

The first three are all aristocrats, so the land is owned by their families, not them specifically. Cecelia also doesn't own anything, but would like to own the Hound Pits Pub one day. At this point we don't know what business ownership in Dunwall is like, so it's impossible to say what restrictions may or may not exist.

Madam Prudence doesn't necessarily own the brothel, just manages it. (The fact that the location has had several madams suggests that there is outside ownership.) As for Morgan's courtesan, I can't recall what this is referring to. Can you elaborate?

"working determining their own fates (the women looters, that one plague victim who barricades herself in the flooded district)"

I accounted for this in my original argument: these women are working outside the established society, so restrictions are looser. The same can be said for women gangsters, who are seen to hold high positions of authority within their syndicates.

"Women work and have careers outside of the house without chaperones, which is a huge thing."

That may be true, but it doesn't negate the sexism seen in other facets of society. Dunwall isn't specifically "not sexist" because it doesn't tic every sexism box.

"Women (of high birth) can have sexual flings with underaged servant boys and no one disdains them or calls them out for their sexuality"

Uh, have you heard the way people talk about Esma? It's not nice. It would just be very unwise to say it to her face, because the Boyle family just happens to be rich as hell. If that weren't the case, I imagine things would be quite different.

I do agree with you that much of this works in conjunction with the classism that is rampant in Dunwall. But why would it not be both? It seems a little off to say that racism and classism are large problems in Dunwall (which they are) but also say there is no sexism. It seems to me that all three are working together.